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Post by limburger59 on Jul 19, 2018 14:43:20 GMT -8
HOUSE RULE: After rolling on either QOTS Table Bl-4 or TFT Table 5-17, the 509th has a House Rule Table to determine how long before your crewman can Return to Duty. If the next Mission occurs before your crewmember has recuperated, you will need to get request temporary crew from the Spare Pool. After the mission roll for SW type per normal rules (Table Bl-4b), then roll below to see how many days till your crewmen will be ready to return to duty (LW & SW-Rec) or go home in the case of Serious Wound-Incapacitated and Invalidated Home. LW*: Roll 1D61 = Treated & Released - Returns Next day 2 = One Day Recuperation 3 = Two Days Recuperation 4 = Two Days Recuperation 5 = Five Days Recuperation 6 = Two Weeks Recuperation * = Plus 1 if crewmember received a second LW during the mission. ie 2x LW. SW-Recovers: Roll 1D61 = Three Days Recuperation 2 = Five Days Recuperation 3 = One Week Recuperation 4 = Two Weeks Recuperation 5 = Three Weeks Recuperation 6 = Six Weeks Recuperation Automatic Recovery:Frostbite-Recovers = 3 days rest Frostbite-Invalidated Home = Roll on SW-Incapacitated chart above Stay in hospital after ditching = 1 day Stay in Hospital if crewman parachuted into Adriatic = minimum of 3 days Borrowed From the 281st Campaign
OPTION #1: If you are playing Target for Today, or are a QOTS player using the optional wound description tables from TFT, you may use those tables, plus the wound recovery time tables created by nbryant, instead of the House Rule table. OPTION #2: Instead of Seriously Wounded crew members not being allowed to bail out, we have a variant that was used by the 281st Play-by-Forum Bomber Group. OPTION #4: For those using Ian Cooper’s Beery Historical Module, there are optional rules for giving First Aid posted below.
This PDF compiles all of the different rules:
3 509th Medical Division Rules v3.pdf (648.8 KB)
As the Radio Room had compartment hot air, in addition to additional outlets for plugging in electric heated suits, electric casualty bags and electric blankets; it was a good location for dedicated First Aid. |
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Post by limburger59 on Jul 20, 2018 8:35:27 GMT -8
Just had a crew member with a Serious Wound - broken fibula. If I wanted to be realistic, he's looking at 4 to 6 weeks before he's fully recovered. I guess a Radio Operator or Bombardier could come back in 4 weeks or less as they sit most of the mission. On the other hand, a Waist Gunner or Engineer may find themselves assigned to the Armory, sitting on a bench and fixing jammed guns for 6 weeks.
I've read accounts of wounded crew in the eighth AF convalescing in England for two months and going back on duty, so invalidating a trained crew member whose only problem is using crutches is harsh.
Of course, getting cleared for duty and finding his original crew all dead, or on their 25th mission is harsh too.
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Post by blaird on Jul 20, 2018 9:07:33 GMT -8
Just had a crew member with a Serious Wound - broken fibula. If I wanted to be realistic, he's looking at 4 to 6 weeks before he's fully recovered. I guess a Radio Operator or Bombardier could come back in 4 weeks or less as they sit most of the mission. On the other hand, a Waist Gunner or Engineer may find themselves assigned to the Armory, sitting on a bench and fixing jammed guns for 6 weeks. I've read accounts of wounded crew in the eighth AF convalescing in England for two months and going back on duty, so invalidating a trained crew member whose only problem is using crutches is harsh. Of course, getting cleared for duty and finding his original crew all dead, or on their 25th mission is harsh too.
I've read where those instances they would find themselves replaced and serving in a spare crew, or re-assigned. |
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Post by limburger59 on Jul 20, 2018 11:23:31 GMT -8
Of course, getting cleared for duty and finding his original crew all dead, or on their 25th mission is harsh too.
I've read where those instances they would find themselves replaced and serving in a spare crew, or re-assigned. Yeah, I'd probably stick them in the Spare Pool. They deserve the chance to make 25. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 17:13:03 GMT -8
Having suffered a few injuries in my day, ripped sternum, a few concussions, bicep rupture, latissimus dorsi tear, torn thumb ligament and various sprains, mild to severe, some of the recovery times I am familiar with and understand. Unfortunately!
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Post by limburger59 on Oct 5, 2018 15:19:22 GMT -8
OPTION #4: For those using Ian Cooper’s Beery Historical Module, there are optional rules for giving First Aid posted below.
14.3 FIRST AIDAt any time during a mission, the player may assign an uninjured crew member to give first aid to one or more crewmen who are, or who become, seriously wounded or frostbitten during the mission. In order to help a crewman in this way, the crewman giving first aid must be assigned as soon as the crewman becomes seriously wounded (or he must have already been assigned to give first aid before the crewman was seriously wounded). Also, the crewman giving first aid may not perform any other duty for the remainder of the mission, although for game purposes he is still considered to be at his regular station. First Aid has the following effects: Seriously wounded crewmen may bailout, but only if the B-17 is under control. -1 modifier on the After Landing roll for crewman survival on the Bl-4 Wounds table. +1 modifier on the After Landing die roll for crewman recovery on the Bl-5 Frostbite table. If the crewmember giving first aid becomes seriously wounded, he may no longer give first aid. Another uninjured crewman may immediately take his place and care for all the crewmembers who have received first aid up to that point. If first aid is cut off before the B-17 lands, severely wounded crewmen may not use the first aid modifiers after landing. |
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Post by imthecrabby on Mar 3, 2020 13:49:10 GMT -8
I have noticed that the Wounds have been taken from Imgur, I would appreciate if they were back up soon. Cheers all!
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Post by limburger59 on Mar 3, 2020 15:51:26 GMT -8
I have noticed that the Wounds have been taken from Imgur, I would appreciate if they were back up soon. Cheers all! Those links were set up by Nolan on his account and he is currently not with the 509th. Those tables are a part of this pdf, used with permission. 3 509th Medical Division Rules v3.pdf (648.8 KB) |
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Post by linnyfish8 on Jul 17, 2020 8:55:42 GMT -8
Just to make sure I'm understanding;
At minimum, it's mandatory to use the Wound Recovery Table (TfT 5-17) and then the 509th House Rule for recovery time. But if we wish, we can use one of the other options presented instead?
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Post by limburger59 on Jul 17, 2020 20:33:15 GMT -8
Just to make sure I'm understanding; At minimum, it's mandatory to use the Wound Recovery Table (TfT 5-17) and then the 509th House Rule for recovery time. But if we wish, we can use one of the other options presented instead? The original House Rule, which existed for years before TFT, is presented first. Option #1 is for TFT players to use the optional wound tables in their game. Those tables didn't list recoveries times so one of our players created more realistic recovery times to go with those injury descriptions. (As TFT had no rules for number of days between missions there was no need for tracking the number of days needed to recover from wounds or to repair your bomber. As our campaign has set number of days between missions there may be cases where we need to requisition spare crew or spare bombers.) A lot of players of both TFT and QOTS have now elected to go with Option #1. |
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Post by linnyfish8 on Jul 18, 2020 6:25:00 GMT -8
Thank you! I had them all printed off and realized I think I was using a mix...
From here on out I'll stick with just option 1. Appreciate it!
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Post by blaird on Jul 18, 2020 17:21:25 GMT -8
Thank you! I had them all printed off and realized I think I was using a mix... From here on out I'll stick with just option 1. Appreciate it! what's your mix? maybe it can become a new option  |
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superbee
79th Bomber Squadron 
CO: 79th Bomb Squadron
Posts: 668 
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Post by superbee on Sept 8, 2020 6:58:47 GMT -8
This past mission (#30) I had a waist gunner suffer a serious wound. At the completion of this mission, I rolled a die to determine his status and came up with a "one"; rapid recovery. (First time that this has ever happened for me in years of playing this game; never before rolled a "one for a seriously wounded man !)
I next rolled a second die to determine the length of his recovery time and rolled another "one"; 3 days recuperation.
My question is this: What kind of wound, sustained in flight combat, would be bad enough to be classified as "serious" but would only require 3 days of recuperation before an individual would be able to (or be allowed to...) return to flight duty?
I am wracking my brain trying to think of some examples, with no success.
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Post by caodwolf on Sept 9, 2020 19:35:32 GMT -8
My view of this is some wounds which looked serious, especially by flight crews who had limited medical training, actually were not serious after all once examined by medical personnel.
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Post by medic1 on Sept 10, 2020 6:03:14 GMT -8
As a former medic, I have also in the past had the same question for the exact same reason.
I also questioned how something classified as a 'light wound' put someone in the hospital for weeks at a time, something that has happened a couple of times.
Caodwolds reasoning has some merit, but in the end I rationlize it like this:
Serious wounds give a higher percentage of death than a light wound, regardless of recovery time.
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Post by limburger59 on Sept 10, 2020 11:22:44 GMT -8
I have had similar questionings.
I know that nbryant, a former Marine with some Wound experience, put a lot of work into his variant; so I go with his numbers most of the time. Overall I think many Light wounds may be treated and released, yet there should be more days before the Flight Surgeon says they can fly again.
I don’t see the numbers as hospitalization time, but the time required before being cleared for full duty in the air. I have added days to RTD for Waist Gunners with leg wounds as they fight while standing where a Radio Operator can limp aboard and sit.
Since a “Serious” Wound in the game means the man is unable to perform his duties, whereas a “Light” Wound means the man can grind through the pain to survive the mission, I can see that once back on the ground there could be a longer recovery for some “light” wounds, whereas the guy who fainted from the pain wakes up On the ground and the wound was not as bad as was thought when his buddy injected him with morphine.
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superbee
79th Bomber Squadron
CO: 79th Bomb Squadron
Posts: 668
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Post by superbee on Sept 10, 2020 18:18:18 GMT -8
Thank you for the thoughtful responses; they all have merit.
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Post by theboyce on Sept 12, 2020 13:56:47 GMT -8
Having been a stretcher bearer in Iraq at the hospital in Balad, I cannot even start to delve into the types and specific wounds listed in the house rules.
"Serious Wound - ok!
Able to fly again.... 8 days.... ok!"
No questions, no extra details needed.
Honestly after a few missions, I have grown a little too fond of my crew as it is.......
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Post by crushedhat on Sept 12, 2020 15:56:36 GMT -8
Wait until you've developed some backstory or worked up a budding relationship through RP and then they don't come back from a mission.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2021 7:29:22 GMT -8
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jasta6
78th Bomber Squadron 
Spring is here and summer is close behind... It is Cruise Season!
Posts: 277
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Post by jasta6 on May 31, 2021 5:16:30 GMT -8
This past mission (#30) I had a waist gunner suffer a serious wound. At the completion of this mission, I rolled a die to determine his status and came up with a "one"; rapid recovery. (First time that this has ever happened for me in years of playing this game; never before rolled a "one for a seriously wounded man !)
I next rolled a second die to determine the length of his recovery time and rolled another "one"; 3 days recuperation.
My question is this: What kind of wound, sustained in flight combat, would be bad enough to be classified as "serious" but would only require 3 days of recuperation before an individual would be able to (or be allowed to...) return to flight duty?
I am wracking my brain trying to think of some examples, with no success.
I assume this in reference to my wound recovery table from the 281st BG Campaign used here. To start with, I have NO experience with anything medical and defer to those who have a better knowledge in this area. As for the quick turn around, it was thought that if a crewmen was hit in the head and knocked unconscious ( minor head wounds can still bleed profusely) or as stated above, he was thought to be seriously wounded but it ended up not to be that bad. So I added some shorter times. I am willing to work with players that are better suited to answer these question and make a more realistic table. Anyone who knows me, knows I like to keep my variants as historically relevant as possible in a playable format. medic1, theboyce, |
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superbee
79th Bomber Squadron
CO: 79th Bomb Squadron
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Post by superbee on Jun 1, 2021 17:37:15 GMT -8
Thank you - answered my question perfectly !
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2021 12:40:49 GMT -8
I would have to default back to medic1 and his experience (we aviation Marines could hardly spell "Doc") but some time back I created this table as an option to enhance the wounds and potential recovery periods. Did some moderate research online but nothing extensive.
[gsheet width=1200 height=900]1tM4Y961BDbBg-xcSqpm4VjRMPIg-7P5e7Xq-Kd_ymOA[/gsheet]
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Post by medic1 on Jun 12, 2021 5:56:38 GMT -8
29 years ago, from March to August, I was attached to a unit sent to a little piece of hell for what is laughingly called "Peacekeeping." It's tough to keep the peace when neither side wants it.
During that time, I mostly saw the worst of Humankind, and I don't think that anyone in my unit came away from that experience unscathed - most of the wounds on the inside (and with mine, I've made the choice to avoid using the word kill in AAR's and sub that with claim).
I've been having a tough time lately, my PTSD kicking in and out. During these times I really have trouble keeping focus. Things that I usually enjoy I just can't get into. I was only logging in to the forum very briefly between visits, forcing myself mainly to update the spare pool requests.
When I first saw this thread, I just wanted to stay out of it for obvious reasons. But at this moment, I'm starting to feel better, so the question is:
What kind of wound, sustained in flight combat, would be bad enough to be classified as "serious" but would only require 3 days of recuperation before an individual would be able to (or be allowed to...) return to flight duty?
If you ask the wounded person, they would probably answer that their wound was serious, if they were conscious. I do like caodwolfs observation of My view of this is some wounds which looked serious, especially by flight crews who had limited medical training, actually were not serious after all once examined by medical personnel. And that also plays into Jasta6's answer As for the quick turn around, it was thought that if a crewmen was hit in the head and knocked unconscious (minor head wounds can still bleed profusely) or as stated above, he was thought to be seriously wounded but it ended up not to be that bad. So I added some shorter times.
Both are valid & true points. To that I will say that I have seen people with what I considered a very survivable wound not pull through. Shock can be a huge game changer. I've also seen the opposite side of that, someone who was written off as not having a chance and pulling through. That is a very rare occurrence in my experience, but it does happen.
But that didn't answer the question. There are a lot of variants and we can kick it around, and if wanted, I can do a deep dive into the wound chart. But for gaming purposes how about any wound that prevents an airman from continuing his duties for the rest of the mission is serious and the recovery times are what they are as you roll them, assuming that the wounded man's constitution kicked in when he was under proper medical care and responding to treatment?
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Post by medic1 on Jun 12, 2021 8:16:25 GMT -8
As an add on: before the pandemic shut down our normal lives, I used to get invites to give lectures at schools about the history of battlefield medicine.
At the beginning of WWII, there was a huge amount of qualified medically trained people that saw service. But due to attrition on the battlefield (KIA/POW), that number dropped dramatically to the point that the appointment of a medic to a unit was to just pull someone from the ranks. They were told: You are no longer a rifleman, you’re now a medic. Here’s your medic kit, your manual (I think the US one was about 50 pages with some illustrations, with some procedures that did more harm than good. But that’s another story.) and here’s how you put on a bandage. And that was it.
After that, it was on the job training.
Stay safe, everyone.
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Post by jeffreymgeorge on Oct 4, 2024 12:50:33 GMT -8
I'd like to use the optional wound descriptions from TFT table 5-17A, B, & C (plus frostbite), but these don't have any information about recovery time. Where do I find these tables created by nbryant? Are they the ones at the top of the post?
Also, is there any way to get these forums to sort with newest messages first? I can't seem to find the option if there is.
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rhreiss
79th Bomber Squadron XO
Posts: 293
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Post by rhreiss on Oct 4, 2024 15:07:55 GMT -8
I'd like to use the optional wound descriptions from TFT table 5-17A, B, & C (plus frostbite), but these don't have any information about recovery time. Where do I find these tables created by nbryant? Are they the ones at the top of the post? Also, is there any way to get these forums to sort with newest messages first? I can't seem to find the option if there is. The tables created by nbryant are in the 3 509th Medical Division Rules v3.pdf that has its link posted in the first post of this thread. Also a couple are in a post above (Posted by DeletedJun 11, 2021 at 4:40pm) |
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